Curse

Jeydra · Dec 01, 2010, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Why would they nerf Discord? Its a pretty mediocre skill. Wow, an elite that does 30 DPS to a single target if you satisfy multiple conditions. Spare me. The only reason it even appears useful is because hero AI makes it spike decently (since heroes will wait to cast it on the first hexed/conditioned foe obviously). It amuses me that people think so much of what is basically an armor ignoring but elite version of Flare.

Why do people use Rodgort's Invocation on MB Eles? It's a useless skill. It does 127 damage with 8s cooldown and 2s cast time = 12.7 DPS. Hm ...

As much as I dislike Discord, arguing that Discord does 30 DPS is just way incredibly shortsighted. What, seriously, is stopping you from casting other spells while Discord is cooling down? You don't seriously think a Discord Necro has just Discord on his bar right (and no wand to wand with, too!).

Quote:

How does this apply to this thread about Discord you ask yourself? Read the points and add Discord instead of Ursan and you have your answer... Anet nerfs something and players find something that is even more effective (See Spiritway for example in a few posts). Gives for nice build wars and creativity for a while... but in the end you will find the next meta skill and whine about that instead.

Are you implying that pre-nerf Ursan and Shadow Form were not overpowered? Or that nerfing Ursan somehow actually made speedclears faster?

Xx_Sorin_xX · Dec 01, 2010, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Are you implying that pre-nerf Ursan and Shadow Form were not overpowered? Or that nerfing Ursan somehow actually made speedclears faster?

I think he was saying that the more we dig for new stuff as overpowered skills get nerfed, the more gimmicky and even more broken builds we find to SC.

Daesu · Dec 01, 2010, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

Weird things, running a decent caller bar - and doing it right - makes discordway 10x more powerful, useful and foolproof, even in heavy hex-removal areas.

But it still doesn't beat spiritway or even MoP damage when it is done right. That AP caller bar is just ridiculous on a warrior because a warrior can generate more damage with his natural build.

The problem with people and generic team builds like discordway is that they don't optimize the build based on the area that they are in. They are too lazy for that. And what is worse? They dont even optimize the team build based on the character that they use! They are too lazy for that too, even though they only need to do this once per profession. The more you customize and optimize, provided you do it correctly, the better your performance would be.

Case in point, try beating EFGJack's times with your discordway, if you think discordway is so great for every area and every professions. Use the AP caller build on your warrior(lol) if you wish: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...t10434178.html

Life Bringing · Dec 01, 2010, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Case in point, try beating EFGJack's times with your discordway, if you think discordway is so great for every area and every professions. Use the AP caller build on your warrior(lol) if you wish: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...t10434178.html

Regardless of Discordway's viability, thats not really a fair comparison considering that a hero build doesnt exist that can beat those times in every area. Sure, spiritway can beat the kath time, but gets destroyed in, say, ooze and SoO.

Xx_Sorin_xX · Dec 01, 2010, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Case in point, try beating EFGJack's times with your discordway, if you think discordway is so great for every area and every professions. Use the AP caller build on your warrior(lol) if you wish: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...t10434178.html

While I agree EFGJack's builds are far better, the point of discord is that it can be played with 0% microing the entire time. EFGJack's clears require tons of microing from what I've read.

Daesu · Dec 01, 2010, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Regardless of Discordway's viability, thats not really a fair comparison considering that a hero build doesnt exist that can beat those times in every area. Sure, spiritway can beat the kath time, but gets destroyed in, say, ooze and SoO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xx_Sorin_xX

While I agree EFGJack's builds are far better, the point of discord is that it can be played with 0% microing the entire time. EFGJack's clears require tons of microing from what I've read.

My point is, if people would bother to customize and optimize their team builds to the area and/or to their character's profession, they would yield better results than old generic discordway. I laugh whenever someone claims his warrior does well using the AP caller bar with discordway, because my warrior does way better with 100blades+MoP and SoH.

Discordway is overrated and it is hardly the best hero build possible. It is meant mostly for lazy people and even then, spiritway trumps it for most of the general areas.

Rushin Roulette · Dec 01, 2010, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Are you implying that pre-nerf Ursan and Shadow Form were not overpowered? Or that nerfing Ursan somehow actually made speedclears faster?

Actually I am implying exactly that.
If you look back at what "Speed"clears of Ursan Groups were doing back then (1 hour runs with 6 players leeroying around dealing damage and 2 dedicated healers) and compare it to the current meta where areas are SOLOED by players doing exactly the same job that 6 Ursans were doing back then and taking about a third of the time it took back then (Also taking onto account that the Quests have been made immensely harder to complete and the addition of Dhuum). Even if you say that Ursan groups were completely overpowered back then... they are nothing compared to the various SF Metas.

If Anet decided to completely unnerf Ursan to its original status of Ranged attacks, then UW players would scorn it becaus eit is slow and inneffective compared to the Meta that is being used now.

Even the first SF SC Meta was slower than the curent one and that was also before the addition of Dhuum, the Skeles and the Quest changes.

I wasnt saying that Nerfing Ursan or SF made Speedclears faster... but nerfing the skills made players look for new team builds which in endeffect were even more effective than what people were complaining about.... thats the ultimatte irony to every whiny post in the lines of "OMG nerf skill X nao it be breaking the economei/1337ist/I iz too lazy to farm rep for a few days so they not let me in on the funzes".

P. S. If you think im saying that because you think im an elitist jerk who lives and breathes to go to the UW in an incredibly fast UWSC team, then your wrong... I havent beaten Dhuum ever and have not been to the UW (Bar a few Spider runs) in over a year. I played the old Pre Dhuum UWSC as Vale Necro and got bored of the UW since then.

Hyperventilate · Dec 01, 2010, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Losing discord wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

I tried a discord build once. Livia refused to use Discord unless she was told to use it.

Figured out it was crap, my way was faster and moved on.

Zenzai · Dec 01, 2010, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

As above - never used it

This.

12charas

drkn · Dec 01, 2010, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Quote:

Killing AP would kill assassin builds that use it for non discordy things lol.

So sins actually prefer AP over other elites in some builds? Thought it was only abused by casters.

Quote:

The problem with people and generic team builds like discordway is that they don't optimize the build based on the area that they are in. They are too lazy for that.

Funny assumption. As noticed earlier, i've changed the original discordway to fit my mes, have more AoE pressure and feel better. I often change a few skills to reflect all changes in the area i'm approaching. I know people who do the same.
Sure, there are lazy people that just copy the build from wiki and never bother manipulating it, and usually those people blame the build for being subpar or not working.
Your example with warrior is pretty silly and based on idiocy of people copying builds without thinking about it. The melee in GW1 is terribly imbalanced in PvE when compared to casters anyway.
That said, a caster with PvE skills and sentient approach to the battlefield can steamroll through nearly every area with discord, changing only a few skills on heroes' bars on the go.

Daesu · Dec 01, 2010, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

So sins actually prefer AP over other elites in some builds? Thought it was only abused by casters.

Funny assumption. As noticed earlier, i've changed the original discordway to fit my mes, have more AoE pressure and feel better. I often change a few skills to reflect all changes in the area i'm approaching. I know people who do the same.
Sure, there are lazy people that just copy the build from wiki and never bother manipulating it, and usually those people blame the build for being subpar or not working.
Your example with warrior is pretty silly and based on idiocy of people copying builds without thinking about it. The melee in GW1 is terribly imbalanced in PvE when compared to casters anyway.
That said, a caster with PvE skills and sentient approach to the battlefield can steamroll through nearly every area with discord, changing only a few skills on heroes' bars on the go.

I disagree, because you are over generalizing. Should all casters go with the AP bar and discordway as that is the best H/H build to go? I don't think so.

I also don't see the point of mentioning PvE skills in your argument to support discordway, what is to prevent casters from taking PvE skills in their own bar when using spiritway instead?

My example of using the warrior is merely an illustration of how people overrated discordway and use it for all professions and all situations. And I have tried many variants of discordway for my casters and found it to be lacking when compared to spiritway.

That said, I only use my own version of spiritway+discordway hybrid for my mesmers and necros because they use hex-based builds. For my rit, I get better results with my variant of spiritway and similarly for my ele, so don't over generalize casters. My monks don't need discordway either. It is silly to over generalize all caster professions and builds simply because you find discordway useful for your mesmer in particular.

Commander Kanen · Dec 01, 2010, 01:47 PM // 13:47

If disco got a nerf i would most likley use balenced builds on my heroes as i do now.

Having said that i use my para most of the time and i would stick to my tripple para builds.

No skin off my nose

lishi · Dec 01, 2010, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xx_Sorin_xX

I think he was saying that the more we dig for new stuff as overpowered skills get nerfed, the more gimmicky and even more broken builds we find to SC.

That is a good thing.

It keep the game alive.

Nyta · Dec 01, 2010, 06:25 PM // 18:25

I only use Discord heroes when someone asks me to bring them; otherwise, I take whatever fits the area I'm in and who I'm playing. So, if it got nerfed, I wouldn't really mind. I hate being a caller, anyway. And if people started asking me to take spiritway instead, that won't really bug me, either, since it doesn't force me to play a certain role.

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · Dec 01, 2010, 06:59 PM // 18:59

sidenote:
i never use AP + discord, just discord and my own builds

as for the topic:
i mentioned earlier i will make my own builds if they ever nerf discord to hell, or beyond
but i could also try to give em hench builds and a few more skills if that certain hench has less than 8 skills, or just hench build + monk res, just for fun

tbh, i can't be bothered copying pvx, but i could try and make 1 build from 2 pvx builds, its not my own for 100%, but could be funny

also, i only use discord because it works well, and i dont use spiritway heroes
should discord become useless, i try pvx builds and see if i can make some nice team of them.... especially with 7 heroes once its here

i wouldn't like it much if they did, although i dont care that much if they do
as for it being overpowered or weak, i say no, its an alright skill
i use discord, although its not from pvx, someone i know has edited it and gave me

oh yea, i said i will make my own team, but i also can say, that i'll find out builds mae for certain areas, like cold dmg at fire enemies (maybe toxic chill) and such on my heroes

without discord some of us would have to make new builds/copy other builds, and as long as i make own builds, and some others keep using pvx, a nerf wont hurt much
i would say its not required, i mean, pugs asking for discord isnt the skill's fault, but the pug's fault

well, thats what i had to say, hope i didnt go too offtopic at some points, although i didnt go more offtopic than some others

ps. i did search for good general pve builds for heroes without using skills which exploit corpses, but i will make them myself.

(sry i did go offtopic a bit, just wanted to make something clear

)

Jeydra · Dec 02, 2010, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette

Actually I am implying exactly that.
If you look back at what "Speed"clears of Ursan Groups were doing back then (1 hour runs with 6 players leeroying around dealing damage and 2 dedicated healers) and compare it to the current meta where areas are SOLOED by players doing exactly the same job that 6 Ursans were doing back then and taking about a third of the time it took back then (Also taking onto account that the Quests have been made immensely harder to complete and the addition of Dhuum). Even if you say that Ursan groups were completely overpowered back then... they are nothing compared to the various SF Metas.

If Anet decided to completely unnerf Ursan to its original status of Ranged attacks, then UW players would scorn it becaus eit is slow and inneffective compared to the Meta that is being used now.

Even the first SF SC Meta was slower than the curent one and that was also before the addition of Dhuum, the Skeles and the Quest changes.

I wasnt saying that Nerfing Ursan or SF made Speedclears faster... but nerfing the skills made players look for new team builds which in endeffect were even more effective than what people were complaining about.... thats the ultimatte irony to every whiny post in the lines of "OMG nerf skill X nao it be breaking the economei/1337ist/I iz too lazy to farm rep for a few days so they not let me in on the funzes".

Wasn't UWSC with pre-nerf Shadow Form something like 7-8 minutes? As for Ursan, it's less a SC as it is a simple build. Today's UWSC clears things faster than Ursan not because Ursan was nerfed, but because Shadow Form was buffed.

Also it takes time for a newly buffed skill to be implemented. Spiritway in its present form didn't take hold immediately after spirits got buffed, same should apply to Shadow Form.

A11Eur0 · Dec 02, 2010, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Reading about the ursan nerf solely in terms of underworld speed clearing: Ursan was not nerfed solely because of UW clears. It was nerfed because of EVERYTHING clears. It was overpowered EVERYWHERE, with absolutely no limitation. You could roll anything under the sun with 6 ursans and 2 monks(or 3 ursans and 1 monk, or 4 ursans, one monk and one whatever), period. It eliminated ALL the other skills in the game besides those that directly improved ursan blessing.

Kunder · Dec 02, 2010, 03:35 AM // 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Why do people use Rodgort's Invocation on MB Eles? It's a useless skill. It does 127 damage with 8s cooldown and 2s cast time = 12.7 DPS. Hm ...

As much as I dislike Discord, arguing that Discord does 30 DPS is just way incredibly shortsighted. What, seriously, is stopping you from casting other spells while Discord is cooling down? You don't seriously think a Discord Necro has just Discord on his bar right (and no wand to wand with, too!).

You answered your question with the point you made. The problem is that to even maintain 30 DPS with Discord the Necro has to spend 1.75s (1s + .75s aftercast) out of every 3 seconds. To be realistic, a Discord caster can't even cast other skills without eating into the Discord damage unless his bar is entirely full of spells that take .5s or less to cast (hint: it isn't). Rodgorts Invocation on the other hand is only spending 2.75s out of every 10 seconds, costing a caster less then half as much time as Discord. Rodgorts invocation also has a high AoE multiplying the DPS with every enemy inside it, inflicts burning (an extra 42 damage per hit, though not stacking with multiple characters), is not elite, and doesn't have asinine requirements to be met before its used. And let me also mention that Rodgorts invocation isn't even a great skill, its only really good in stupid tank-n-spank situations where you can ball enemies up to massively exploit the AoE. It still beats Discord though.

DokkyDok · Dec 02, 2010, 04:17 AM // 04:17

My main is a monk and most of my friends no longer play.

...I could use spiritway, but my remaining vew vq's are AoE heavy, and I don't much like having to wait for the spirits to recharge between battles.

Knocklocking with ymlad & evas is more than enough to deal with healers, 9 times out of 10.

Necromas · Dec 02, 2010, 04:59 AM // 04:59

It's fun being a spirit spammer and doing more single target damage than 3 discord spammers.